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<p>Hi Vincent, <br>
</p>
<p>Our organic trials were comparing Badge alt Microthiol and Cueva
+ Double Nickel. They were all air blast at 100 gal/A. We've done
a lot of injury trials and injury is seems to be increased with
low volume or concentrate applications. Our injury results seem to
follow the acute toxicity/exposure phenomenon, whereby injury is
higher when the concentration is higher not more dilute. This is
not unlike when one is exposed to a toxin in water, air, or direct
contact. A few years back, a lot of growers in NY injured their
plantings with complicated tank mixes during thinning applications
in low volume applications like 50 gal/A. Two many things were
getting mixed with captan in insufficient water and being extruded
from nozzles. <br>
</p>
<p>Kerik<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/1/2017 1:00 PM, Vincent Philion
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:7D836C36-D3FF-4579-B137-08F448CF795A@irda.qc.ca"
type="cite">
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charset=windows-1252">
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-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
Hi Kerik,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">It would certainly be interesting to understand
why results differ so greatly. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">It’s unfortunate that companies insist on high
volume spraying. Aside from the russeting issue, there are
many good reasons to reduce spray volume (in relation to tree
size). It’s also unfortunate most trials are done with a
handgun (and no air assist?), resulting in a droplet spectrum
size and spray distribution very different from what growers
actually use.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In any case, the good news is your results imply
that Cueva is very safe to use, even at high volume. Were you
running oxychloride with a similar copper concentration
alongside Cueva?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Vincent </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">Le 1 mai 2017 à 09:59, Kerik D. Cox <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:kdc33@cornell.edu"
class="">kdc33@cornell.edu</a>> a écrit :</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Vincent, <br class="">
<br class="">
I'm sorry that our trials resulted in the opposite
expectation. Most of the company protocols ask me to
apply their products at 100 gal/A. I guess they were
hoping to increase the chance of showing product
injury at my field days. I thought it was a more
universal tree row volume for apples, my mistake.
The field crews at Geneva and Ithaca sprays
everything at 100 gal/A. I guess it's an underhanded
attempt to potentially injure our plots with copper.
With all my dilute handgun applications, I'm
surprised that I don't have potatoes. I guess I keep
getting lucky. <br class="">
<br class="">
Best, <br class="">
Kerik<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:52649C45-52A9-40D7-8CCA-817DA15F189B@irda.qc.ca"
type="cite" class="">
Hi Kerik,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I don’t know how much experience you
actually have with airblast sprayer trials varying
volume, but this is something we do routinely.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Evidence of copper injury with high
volume sprays dates back (at least) to 1972. Look
it up. Classic experiments demonstrate the same
amount of copper can defoliate plants or result in
no injury, just by varying volume.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Let’s say I have a hard time
“swallowing” your aspirin analogy…! Let’s stick
to apples, OK?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The fact that labels require you to
apply large volumes of water doesn’t make it a
sound or sensible advice.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Most likely, the labels reflect the
trial conditions. And most trials in the USA are
run with high volume….!</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">Vincent</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">Le 1 mai 2017 à 08:31, Kerik
D. Cox <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kdc33@cornell.edu" class="">kdc33@cornell.edu</a>>
a écrit :</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"
class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Vincent,
<br class="">
<br class="">
We've found that concentration is
potentially more damaging with copper
than higher volumes as the both 50gal
and 100gal get the same amount of
copper. It's like taking powdered
aspirin with half the recommended
amount of water. Also, many labels in
the US actually require that certain
products be applied in a minimum of
100 gal/A. If were potentially
injurious to apply at 100 gal/A, I
assure you that no company would
include any such statements on label.
Actually, they would, without a doubt,
put statements saying that the product
should not be applied at 100 gal/A or
injury would occur. Excess water seems
to just roll off the trees in our
experiments.
<br class="">
<br class="">
Best,<br class="">
Kerik<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:6D2E166C-0E40-4425-B7E3-0160F780579E@irda.qc.ca"
type="cite" class="">
<div class="">I hope you meant a Low
volume of water. High volume = slow
drying = russeting. This is very
easy to demonstrate. We do it as a
"control" in plots. We always have
copper induced russeting at 500 L/ha
and none at 225 L/ha. <br class="">
<br class="">
Vincent Philion, agr., M.Sc.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
Le 1 mai 2017 à 08:05, Two Onion
Farm <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:farmer@twoonionfarm.com"
class="">farmer@twoonionfarm.com</a>>
a écrit :<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<p class="">Kerik Cox at Cornell
has done trials with this
combination for cedar apple
rust, summer fungal diseases,
and fireblight and has had good
results.
<br class="">
</p>
<p class="">We started using the
combination in our organic
orchard last year and did not
see any problems with fruit
russeting. Kerik did caution me
to use a high volume of water to
avoid toxicity from the copper
(100 gallons per acre vs our
normal 50 in our high density
orchard). We have used 2
qts/acre Cueva + 2 lbs/acre 2ble
nickel.
<br class="">
</p>
<p class="">Kerik also suggested
that the 2ble nickel might be
unnecessary and that cueva alone
might be sufficient, but that
may be theoretical at this
point. The 2ble nickel does add
a lot of cost.<br class="">
</p>
<p class="">Chris</p>
<p class="">Chris & Juli
McGuire <br class="">
Two Onion Farm <br class="">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.twoonionfarm.com/"
class="">www.twoonionfarm.com</a><span
class="MsoHyperlink"></span>
<br class="">
19638 Cottage Inn Road <br
class="">
Belmont, WI 53510 <br class="">
(608) 762-5335 <br class="">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:farmer@twoonionfarm.com"
class="">farmer@twoonionfarm.com</a></p>
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On
5/1/2017 6:43 AM, maurice tougas
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CANaNiPTDCmFD6_k_XsBOM4N=5wiQt8zBypENFnpVOERq_D3J5w@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">A couple
years ago I recall discussion
regarding the use of
Cueva/Double Nickel
combination as an alternative
and/or rotation with strep for
fireblight management. Is
anyone aware of further
research regarding this
combination esp as to regards
to crop safety and efficacy ?
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Mo Tougas<br
class="" clear="all">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
-- <br class="">
<div class="gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Maurice Tougas<br class="">
Tougas Family Farm<br
class="">
Northborough,MA 01532<br
class="">
508-450-0844</div>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Kerik D. Cox, Ph.D., Associate Professor
Plant Pathology and Plant-Microbe Biology Section
School of Integrative Plant Science
Cornell University
221 Barton Lab
NYSAES
630 West North Street
Geneva, NY 14456 USA
E-mail: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:kdc33@cornell.edu">kdc33@cornell.edu</a>
Faculty Office: (315) 787-2401
Fruit Pathology Lab: (315) 787-2402
FAX: (315) 787-2389
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Kerik D. Cox, Ph.D., Associate Professor
Plant Pathology and Plant-Microbe Biology Section
School of Integrative Plant Science
Cornell University
221 Barton Lab
NYSAES
630 West North Street
Geneva, NY 14456 USA
E-mail: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:kdc33@cornell.edu">kdc33@cornell.edu</a>
Faculty Office: (315) 787-2401
Fruit Pathology Lab: (315) 787-2402
FAX: (315) 787-2389
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